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Hi! Welcome to Crumbling Empires, a show about living here and now in the midst of crumbling empires with realism and with hope. I’m Lyndsey Medford and this show is a branch of my Substack newsletter that you can find at lyndseymedford.substack.com. You can also read a transcript of this interview by looking in the show notes for the link to that.
I had such a great time talking with Kim, Noel Zeller, and Aaron Stribus about parenting in the midst of crumbling empires. So let’s get to it!
Lyndsey: Hi, welcome to crumbling empires. I’m here today with Kim Knowle-Zeller, and Erin Strybis. They are the authors of a new book called The Beauty of Motherhood, Grace-filled Devotions for the Early Years. Thank you so much for being here!
Kim: Thanks. We’re so glad to be here.
Erin: Thanks for having us, Lyndsey.
Lyndsey: Kim is a pastor in the Lutheran Church in America and a mother of two. And Erin is a writer and mom of two and a former editor of Living Lutheran. So they are working moms. And of course, I have a vested and very biased and personal interest in this conversation.
if you haven’t kept up with me on social media. I am five months pregnant now and so I’m personally super excited about this conversation. I’m also, as a person in the world and a fellow author and a Christian person, very excited that this book.
And of course all these questions are addressed to both or either of y’all.
What spiritual or faith background, or even assumptions about the narrative of motherhood, did you bring into your own experience of motherhood? Before this book existed, I suppose.
Kim: I love that question. So both Erin and I have grown up in the Lutheran church and it’s been our home for many, many years. And so in the Lutheran church, we fall back on grace over and over again. And that’s been the driving force in our book. And so we brought that into the book because what we had been experiencing in motherhood, but also just Christian life in different circles and groups and college or in our church communities, is that sometimes it feels like you have this pressure to do and be the perfect wife, mom, Christian. And so there’s never any attainment of that. And it brings a lot of, can bring some guilt and frustration. And so we brought that counter story into our writing, that there is grace for the mom, grace for us. And that was what led the way as we were writing.
Lyndsey: That’s awesome, that’s beautiful. I read somewhere else in an interview or something with y’all that you were looking around for a progressive devotional or spiritual journey of some sort about motherhood and you couldn’t find it, which really surprised me. And–not that I have searched out a lot of resources about motherhood up until now–but then I thought about it and I haven’t run across that many. I did just want to hear what progressive actually means to you, because I like to tease out that term that we like to just throw around as if we all know what it means. And what is progressive faith and maybe what is progressive motherhood?
Erin: Wow, that’s a meaty question. I want to just go back to kind of that story that you were referencing about. I was searching for devotionals when I first became a mom, when I went back to work, and it was a very challenging time for me. I remember just feeling wracked with guilt when I stepped back into my role as an editor. I felt just very torn between that vocation and then the vocation of motherhood and feeling like I couldn’t do either one well, and then I was being set up to fail.
And so I think some of what Kim was saying earlier about this book being very much grounded in grace is something that I was looking for in a resource that I was just really struggling to find. And there are so many devotionals for moms out there on the market. So when we say we identify as Christians who are progressive, I think what I mean by that is I’m really just informed by my Lutheran upbringing, a faith that honors social justice and some of the messages of Jesus to minister to those on the margins and to really be focused on the liberation of others, as well as honoring and loving all. And when we welcome others into the church, we really mean to include others.
So that’s part of that. I don’t think it’s a whole definition, but I also want to note that when we were writing this book, even though we were writing from our perspective as members of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, we very much ended up writing a book that is inclusive. So however you identify faith-wise, Christian faith-wise, we really feel like we wrote in such a way that we hope that these stories can be for you.
I think inclusivity is one of our core values as writers. And so we focused on, you know, the gospel and shared messages of hope and love with others while knowing that we didn’t want to necessarily pigeonhole the writer–or the reader, I’m sorry–into a label necessarily. But I do think some of these devotions that we wrote speak to an inclusive faith that again, Kim has already said it’s grounded in grace. And I’m thinking of one in particular that sort of speaks to there’s a there’s a devotional I wrote called We Are One. And it’s about my son praying a prayer that he actually learned from his Montessori school at the dinner table. And it honors and acknowledges the wide variety of faiths that exist in the world. And called us as a family to consider how we are one with others and honor the dignity of all. And so there’s devotions like that that kind of lift up different aspects of our faith tradition.
Lyndsey: Cool. Yeah, I thank you for that. And I agree wholeheartedly. I’m glad you said that. That it is not just Lutheran. Because the extent of my Lutheranism is like really appreciating Nadia Bolz Weber, you know, but I’m somewhat United Methodist and somewhat Episcopalian and a little bit closet Catholic. So, and all of this really spoke to me. And I think if people don’t know what Lutheranism is, you know, a really great definition is, as y’all have mentioned, the focus on grace. And that really comes through here. And it’s really even in the experience of reading it and not just the–not, like, theological words about grace, but the sense of being come alongside and welcomed. And so I appreciate that from y’all.
Kim:Thanks. That was our hope that in sharing our stories of where grace is breaking in: that moms and families will be invited to see their own experiences of grace and to share that with others.
Lyndsey: Yeah. Yeah. I think that I’m really excited to see how that unfolds because I feel that really strongly.
Erin, you just mentioned going back to work. One of these devotions is about that experience in particular. Another one of them is about the emotional labor that moms end up carrying for families, and you might say also for organizations and workplaces and stuff. So I appreciated that these structural issues were kind of addressed in those spaces. I’m wondering how you were thinking in any broader sense or in your lives, how that contributed to your experience of living and writing this book–to pay the attention to those wider structural issues that women and mothers face in particular. And then I also wanted to know how this prayer and practice that you are guiding us through in this book, help you as you are facing those systemic big things that we face.
Erin: Well, yes, that’s a lot. And I just want to acknowledge, you know, I think we both, as Kim mentioned already, from the aspect of storytelling, we wrote this book, knowing that in order to speak truth, it’s really helpful as a writer to write very specifically about the challenges you’re facing. Also knowing that some of the challenges that I face as a privileged white woman are not necessarily representative of the whole of all these structural issues moms face, especially in the United States, but all over.
Moms receive so many conflicting messages about what it means to be a good mom. And so I think when I was just writing my personal stories and a universal truth that might come out of that and a gospel hope that might come out of it. I definitely wanted to push back against some of these challenges while just acknowledging that they exist.
So this book is not necessarily a book of solutions so much as it is about honest storytelling and then finding probably some hope in the stories in support of others that are around us. So in the instance of the devotion that I write about going back to work, I’m finding hope and God’s presence in the face of other mothers who I see are overcoming and still facing these challenges, but as I see living into their God-given vocations. And so I think our faith offers an alternative vision to what it means to be moms living at our work, whether that’s in our homes doing work. And I think that our book also offers a lot of dignity to the work of caretaking, or if that’s also working outside the home.
And so I was really leaning on theologian Martin Luther’s theology of vocation and saying that changing diapers is also as important as preparing taxes. And so this work of tending our kids is important. And so just kind of honoring.
Kim: So I was working the first year of my daughter, my first child’s life as a pastor. My husband and I were both pastors. And, you know, it just sorta came up close and personal with what it is in the church specifically and how the church can be a place to welcome families. And that a place to do that would be with your pastor and their family. And yet how sometimes, you know, humans, it doesn’t always, you know, we’re human, we make mistakes.
So I was living that and living it with my husband, who both of us, same vocation, pastors in the Lutheran church. And yet it’s one thing for the mother to take her kid to church. And it looks totally different when the father does. And it just, you know, like here he was lifted up, how beautiful it was. Oh, Pastor can have his kid at church and look at how great he is. Right. And I mean that in all love and seriousness though, but that’s what it, what it is. And I’ve, I’ve heard that from colleagues. There’s just a lot of reckoning and honesty and truth telling that needs to happen. If we want to care for families, which churches do and can do so beautifully that sometimes with their pastors, this is the place to start.
Lyndsey: Yeah, that’s actually giving me a lot of different thoughts. I really appreciated Aaron’s phrase, dignity to caretaking, though. And I think maybe when we are like, well, there’s a man holding a child, we’re like trying really hard to offer some dignity to caretaking, but that’s because we think envisioning something as masculine is giving it dignity, right? And so I think I really appreciate–I think a lot, I talk a lot about how we should value caretaking, and how we should find, you know, really lift up the spiritual. dignity and importance and beauty of caretaking in a lot of different roles, but you guys are doing it in this book. And I really appreciate that.
I wonder if there’s any other ways that you have experienced or are hoping to see there become more of a reciprocal relationship between when we talk about justice and we talk about caretaking. Sometimes we end up putting those into separate spheres when in reality I think they’re the same. I see this in your book and I really wanted to tease it out and give y’all a chance to talk about where you’ve seen that play out in your lives.
Erin: A friend Jess has this great shirt on it that says, Raising the Future. And I think that speaks to the stewardship that is placed on all parents to cultivate citizens, children of faith, people with so many different spiritual gifts to offer the world and better the world. And so when I think about the relationship between motherhood and justice, I think about the work of child rearing from the very early stages of loving on your kids in whatever way you see is best. Diapers, cuddling, etc. All the way up to where I’m at now, which is my oldest is a kindergartener. So the conversations that we’re having about what does it look like to be a good neighbor to others and how can we be kind to our friends and helping him see his classmates of all different backgrounds as valued important people.
And you know what, it’s so basic, right? The lessons that we learn in kindergarten, and yet we see time and again in stories that often come up from the news of people who miss those messages that our neighbor, that we need to love our neighbors first, right? And so I think some of the love that we’re pouring into our kids, which to me is very much indicative and inspired by a loving God, these are very important lessons that we’re offering future adults or even kids honoring their dignity now in the world and the beautiful influence that they can be to us as people. There are some devotions in which we sort of flip the script and talk about how our kids are pointing us back to this vision of beloved community or offering us messages and lessons in our faith as we’re parenting them.
Kim: Yeah, I love that. And just in, along with the simple-ness, part of some things just that I need to remind myself too, is the work of justice and child rearing is taking a walk in your neighborhood and being in the community and with the people. And especially if you don’t agree or with some of the people in your community, but the call to be kingdom builders is to be out and to be engaging and listening and loving. And so that’s what we do as a family.
And, you know, we have with little ones, it’s really just about presence at this point too, and having them see us engage with friendships and service. And then, you know, over time, then we get to get to those questions of, well, why of the societal, like the structures, why are structures like this that we have to feed hungry people? Yeah. Why are people, you know, talking about these things and not, or, and we’ll get there. But starting with the presence and being in the community first.
Lyndsey: Yeah, and the more time I’ve spent over about the last decade in various social justice spheres, the more I see people who have gotten the sociology lesson that you’re pointing to, Kim, but not the kindergarten lessons. And they’re…They’re simply not effective, you know, regardless of my judgments upon them or whatever, it’s not very effective to be right, but not able to sit down with someone in empathy, not able to roll up your sleeves and serve when you don’t actually feel like it. And you do you learn that when you’re four or five, and it’s like, now you’re gonna pick up your toys. That’s where it starts. And I think we really overlook that a lot.
I also love that about being out in the community, Kim. I’ve thought about I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately, so we just moved to a new neighborhood. Well, to a new state. We landed in this neighborhood, and so I’m starting to be a part of the conversations in this neighborhood and in our current social sphere and a lot of it is about protecting our children, which is really important and also something that we can overdo, I really believe. And it sounds like you are equipping your children to participate in the world because you know you cannot protect them from it forever. And certainly that looks different when they’re two or three or four than when they’re 10 or 12 or 16. But I appreciate that going on a walk is a practice of encountering the unknown together and walking through that.
I also, Erin, you just touched on this. This really stood out to me that you talk about learning from your children, and I’m not sure that it’s the title of any specific devotional here. But that was another thing I really wanted to lift up about what you’ve done here. Because even as I’ve read bell hooks in the last year or two and some other feminist scholars and learned a little bit more about–like, the words “child liberation” were not on my radar before then. But I think this is such a crucial and illuminating and just like really beautiful and joyful practice of humility.
And going all the way back to your mention of being, you know, trying to figure out how to do this thing as privileged white women in often in privileged white spaces. That humility piece, I think is so impossible to overstate the importance of it. And I just love how you’re demonstrating the practice of that with in learning from your kids.
I wonder what, how, what does that like look and feel like in the day to day? Because I like, I think it’s a nice flowery thing to say. And then the, like the practice of it is very different. I wanted to hear how that, how that’s looking for you now or in your homes.
Kim: Yeah, I love that word humility, because it’s about humility and also realizing too that we don’t have all the answers. We’re not supposed to. And for me, it’s about noticing and just being open to what’s in front of me. Whether that’s the questions my kids have, their uncertainties, and a lot of it, just their joy too, is a good reminder for me.
Erin: Yeah, I mean, Lyndsey, as I was listening to you speak on this, and Kim as well, I was thinking about one of the themes in our book, which is repair and forgiveness. And so I think I’ve learned a lot from my kids when I’ve because children are a mirror, especially when you start to enter that toddler years. You it any parenthood every stage brings you to your knees.
And so there’s a few devotions we write about, Kim and I, experiences where we’ve stumbled in parenting. And so I’m thinking about the avocado toast devotion I write about where toddlers are maddening, you will give them exactly what they want and then they will be like, “‘Nope, I don’t want this anymore.'” And so I just have this moment with my son in the book where I just kind of falter in that situation and then the devotion kind of takes the reader through means of repair and a prayer for forgiveness and just kind of reminding the reader that God offers us grace even when we mess up and how important it is to apologize to our kids.
But I bring that up because I had another moment recently with my now kindergartener who is the subject of that devotion. And he was just like, you know, “Mommy, you’ve been kind of doing this a lot, like raising your voice, using your loud voice.” And it’s like, “well, Jack, it’s because you’re not listening to me. But I’m taking that feedback in mind and I’m sorry. Yeah, I messed up.” And so again, our kids are teaching us and are mirrors to us and reminding us, when we see them do something or when they, you know, reflect our behavior back to us, kind of humbling us and reminding us how to live and love better.
And so these focal family relationships, I think are super important because then they extend out to how we interact in the world and how it’s just, it’s such an important thing that we’re receiving feedback from our kids and then trying to support them better. And we know we’re gonna keep messing up because we’re human, but I just, it was humbling to say the least in that moment.
Lyndsey: Yeah, and you’re pointing to another pattern in this book that I wanted to bring out, which is that a lot of the, I think all of them include a prayer, and some of them also include a practice. And I really love that and I really appreciate how intentional you were about bringing those practices down to a very granular and doable level.
So I’m wondering where that idea came from and what it was like to to put those, to write those. I, in my experience, those are some of the hardest parts to write actually.
Erin: Right. And that was sort of the gift to have just our lived experiences moms about what’s worked and didn’t, hasn’t worked over the years. And that, and that’s the gift also then logistically about writing with a partner and that we got stuck on something we could, we had, there were two of us. There were, there was some back and forth and conversations. And so we could ask, well, what do you, does, when we were editing each other too, we could say, does this work? And we were always, always thinking about the reader, this mom who is busy and tired. And so we wanted things that were not overwhelming. Again, not one more thing to do. But how are how is this something that can really connect you with God or with with others?
Lyndsey: Yeah, a practice that’s sustaining not not draining like another thing to do.
Erin: Yeah. And it helps that we are indeed the target audience for our book. So anything that made me feel tired when I was writing and I was like, Nope, we can’t do this. Really providing throughout the entire book, a gentle tone and a tone that is just saying, Hey, I see you and here’s something to think about. I still think we were able to be convicting in a gentle way. Like that is definitely our goal. Um, but we just, we just know how much is being thrown at moms. And so we were thinking about, what do I still need?
And Kim and I come back to this all the time when we’re talking about this book, like we still need words of grace daily as parents and encouragement. And I think it was truly for me. So I was mothering my youngest as a baby as I was writing this book. And it was my hardest writing season ever. Like I had brain fog, I was sleep deprived and whatnot. But I also think it was truly a gift from God to be writing through that season, because I could still relate to the exhaustion that we feel as caretakers when we’re caring for the really little ones, but also big ones too. So yeah.
I’m still finding beauty in it in a way that we didn’t want it to be toxic positivity, like true beauty holding the tensions of what is difficult and what is uplifting and honoring all parts of the parenthood experience. We’re not just saying like, oh, it’s beautiful. So you should feel better. But just saying like, Right. This is really hard. And I think there is some beauty.
There’s a devotion I wrote on sleep deprivation. There is some beauty when you’re surrendering to and caring for a child in the middle of the dark and you’re just, you’re tired beyond belief, but you’re modeling, you know, you’re modeling God. The work that you’re doing is the work, the way and the love that you’re sharing with your child is the way that God loves us. And that metaphor of a heavenly parent becomes even more powerful when you step into that role.
Lyndsey: Right. I, as we’re starting to wrap up here, I did want to get into two of these practices that y’all wrote about that really stuck out to me. Erin, you wrote about playing in the snow with your son and, like, you weren’t just like, “Wow! play! love it!” You were like, this was hard for me to make the time and stop and get out in the snow and do. And it became a beautiful thing. How have you continued to carry a commitment to play through your mothering? And how have you found it popping up in your spirituality?
Erin: Gosh, that’s a really good question. Well, I’m still going to be honest. So part of that devotion, I admit that I’m not the best player, my mom. My mom is a retired gym teacher. And so I look to her for guidance. And so she’s actually caring for my son right now. But I actually I struggle with this. But as I had written, I see how much it means to my kids.
So one of my new rituals right now is when I start the day, I have an early riser, my youngest is an early riser. So he helps me make my coffee after I feed him. We start the day and then we just get on the floor together. And my phone, I don’t know where my phone is. It’s across the room, hidden away. And I really just try and focus on what my toddler needs. Even though, and this is probably gonna get me a little slack. I do think that parenting can be really boring and sometimes playing with little kids can be boring. It can also be really beautiful.
So that time, I think it can be in a way a spiritual discipline, a discipline of like, okay, I’m going to get on the floor with my child and give him my undivided attention because I know how important that is to his development, even though that’s hard for me.
But that being said, there’s other aspects of parenting kids and all different ways you can find play. And one of the most fun things for me right now with my kindergartener is actually reading to him. And I mean, I love books, I’m a writer, I love avid reader. And my my oldest just got into Harry Potter. So that has felt like play to my husband and me because we’re both reading to him, introducing him to this beautiful magical world that we can explore together.
Lyndsey: That is exciting!
Erin: Yeah!
Lyndsey: And Kim, I was really moved by your devotional about hand-me-downs. As a side note, I often title my email newsletters like, “the spiritual practice of…something really mundane.” And so yours was about the spiritual practice of hand-me-downs. And I just loved how you were casting an alternative vision of prosperity for us.
I think it maybe struck me as I’m, you know, so much is about like, what are you going to buy for your baby? It’s like, I don’t know. And I have some friends that I think are pretty much going to have it covered for me, so I’m like, I’m not buying anything. So they can look however my friend’s baby looked. And I just wanted to hear more from you about sort of resisting a consumerist idea of prosperity as a family through the beautiful practice of community and of sharing and valuing what’s not, you know, brand new because it’s not brand new.
Kim: Right. Right. And which it’s, I mean, there’s so much stuff with kids, so much. And so, yeah, definitely the clothes, especially with clothes, there’s something so powerful about what this, what a tangible object has held and who it was holding and to then just to be aware of those stories and that. I mean, that’s what we believe with bread and wine and water, that there’s something mystical and magical within and under it and all around it.
And I think that too, with the things that get handed down, and especially if we can be intentional with it and which a lot of families are, right? I mean, if you’re in mom’s group, she passed things down. And there’s joy on the other end too, when you’re watching somebody else wear your kids’ clothes and then it connects you all. And then there’s the memories associated with it. And it is this picture of that we have enough. That we have enough, we are enough. It’s there.
Lyndsey: That’s perfect. That’s beautiful. My last question that I like to ask, and I’ll hand it off to each of you individually, I suppose, is where how do you define hope and where are you finding it right now?
Erin: Good question.
Kim: I can go first. I find hope. I mean, this is the conversation too, but within my kids, that I see it in, to go back to the forgiveness, I see it in the modeling, the humbling that can happen, that over and over I can mess up. And over and over again, each day there’s this chance. And within each hour, there’s these God’s new mercies that are there.
And that is hopeful because it is so hard to be a parent, to be a human, to be a partner and a friend. And so it’s hopeful that there’s new mercy every day.
Erin: I would echo what Kim said. I see a lot of hope in relationships with my children and others. I’m also finding a lot of hope right now. So it’s springtime when we’re recording this. And so Chicago, where I live, has finally just like burst open. Actually talk about this in the introduction of my book, In the Midwest, spring is such a tumultuous season.One day it’s snowing and truly two days ago at my son’s tee ball practice, it was snowing. And then one day we’ve got flowers bursting forth.
And I just feel like that’s a really good analogy for the world we live in right now. Like one day it’s snowing and we’re just like, we’re hearing all these stories about gun violence and it’s just very, very upsetting. I have a very strong heart for peace. And so this is just really hard for me whenever I hear news of this.
And all of us, right? Because we want to live in a safe world and these stories are really upsetting. But at the same time, there’s beauty and there’s moments of true kindness happening in this world, in this created world. And you can see that in the flowers, you can see that in relationships.
And I often find hope in some of these other alternative news sources that will offer stories of people just being really, really kind to one another. Or moments from my day where someone just offers a grace. I still think about how when I miscarried, people were showing up for me and providing me flowers, meals, and just words of comfort when I was walking through a really difficult time. And so when we’re walking through those difficult moments, I think seeking out the flowers and the sunshine and signs of spring and new life in relationships can really bring us back to ourselves and just know that both coexist in this world, that God’s love is shining through in these relationships and in the natural created world for us. And there’s just this holiness scattered all around us that shows up so much, I think, in the springtime as we see new life bursting forth from everywhere.
Lyndsey: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. I think this book does that, brings us back to ourselves and back to relationship at the same time. And that’s really feels like the heart of so much of what, you know, I need spiritual practices to do for me on a daily basis. And it’s, but it’s also really hard to, to do and to guide each other through. So I’m really grateful for you all and for your work. And I’m also grateful for your friendship and the similar book launching season. Maybe you could look forward to some Voxes from me about babies also.
Kim: Oh, we would love that. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Lyndsey: Oh, I want to have you all say, um, each of you say your name so we can, our listeners can make sure they know who’s talking and where we can find you.
Kim: Yeah. Thanks, Lindsay. My name is Kim Knowle-Zeller. So my website is kimberlyknowlezeller.com. And from there you can find info about the book, some, um, some occasional writings on my blog, Instagram as well. I’m there and I have a, I have a Substack as well, which is my monthly newsletter that goes out called Walk and Talk.
Erin: And I’m Erin Strybis, and you can find me online on my website at erinstrybis.com where I occasionally blog, and I also have links to our book, other publications, as well as my monthly newsletter, which is called Nourish. And it’s a newsletter to help you be kinder to yourself and others. I’m still holding down the fort at MailChimp and offering that to my readers here. But I would love to connect with you there. That’s one of my favorite places to write. And it’s been a joy to connect with you in this space. So thanks for having us, Lyndsey.
Lyndsey: Yes, thanks for coming! We will share all that in the show notes along with the link to The Beauty of Motherhood, Grace-Filled Devotions for the Early Years. Thanks, y’all.
Lyndsey: We talked a lot in this episode about maintaining kindness and connection as part of the web of what holds us up when things are crumbling and difficult around us. I know I really love and feel seen when my friends send me things to read or to listen to that remind me of them in the middle of their day, and that makes me feel really connected to them as they’re going about their lives. So if anything in this episode made you think of a friend, go ahead and take a few seconds to send it to them. It would of course mean a lot to me and I hope that I would mean a lot to you. All the links that we mentioned just now are going to be in the show notes so you can connect with me and Kim and Erin over there. Thanks so much for listening.
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